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| *** mgedmin changes topic to "SchoolTool development | IRC logs at http://source.schooltool.org/irclogs/ | Buildbot: http://source.schooltool.org/buildbot/ | Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET)| CanDo dev meetings Tue, 4pm EST" | 13:12 | |
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| th1a | Good morning all. | 16:30 |
|---|---|---|
| mgedmin | hi, th1a | 16:31 |
| srichter | good morning | 16:31 |
| ignas | hi | 16:31 |
| th1a | Good afternoon mgedmin, ignas. | 16:31 |
| th1a | How have things been going at POV? | 16:31 |
| mgedmin | ok, I guess | 16:32 |
| mgedmin | the "default groups" story is finished (although it took more time than initially estimated) | 16:32 |
| mgedmin | we're still at the API design stage of the attendance workflow story | 16:32 |
| mgedmin | but now everyone understands how zope.wfmc works | 16:33 |
| th1a | Cool. We should talk about my crack at the workflow. | 16:33 |
| th1a | In a bit. | 16:34 |
| th1a | I want to get srichter's reaction. | 16:34 |
| srichter | :-) | 16:34 |
| th1a | So you're working on the workflow now? | 16:34 |
| mgedmin | yes | 16:35 |
| th1a | OK, cool. | 16:35 |
| th1a | srichter, how's our sample product coming? | 16:36 |
| srichter | ok, I have a bit that is not checked in | 16:36 |
| srichter | but I think it will be neat, since the documentation is the test | 16:37 |
| th1a | That is good. | 16:37 |
| th1a | OK then, let's discuss this "expanation" workflow. | 16:38 |
| srichter | ok, shoot | 16:39 |
| mgedmin | it looked very strange to me at first, but finally I realized that it works | 16:39 |
| th1a | Does everyone have that? JaWE fired up? | 16:39 |
| th1a | Well, it assumes that you've got one object for absences and tardies, I think. | 16:39 |
| mgedmin | that's a sensible assumption | 16:40 |
| th1a | Or at least it encourages that worldview. | 16:40 |
| srichter | did you send a file? | 16:40 |
| th1a | I checked it in. | 16:40 |
| th1a | src/attendance/eplanation.xpdl | 16:40 |
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| th1a | explanation | 16:40 |
| th1a | .xpdl | 16:41 |
| mgedmin | so, when a teacher submits an attendance tracking form, we create an attendance tracking object for each student | 16:41 |
| srichter | (I have not read E-mails since Friday, so I anything might be burried. ;-) | 16:41 |
| ignas | mgedmin, not for each, only gfor those that are late/absent | 16:41 |
| mgedmin | and if the checkbox was unchecked, we create a process and start the workflow | 16:41 |
| ignas | oh | 16:41 |
| mgedmin | ignas, we also need to record presences, so for each | 16:41 |
| ignas | sorry | 16:41 |
| mgedmin | I think the "create absence" activity does not require any manual interaction | 16:42 |
| mgedmin | so the workflow progresses to the Explain activity and sits there | 16:42 |
| th1a | I agree. It seemed to be necessary to the structure of the workflow. | 16:43 |
| mgedmin | if a student comes in late, we finish the work item with some flag saying "tardy=True" | 16:43 |
| th1a | You can't make a two-way arrow off the first node of a workflow. | 16:43 |
| mgedmin | move to the make tardy, have no manual interaction there, and move right back to Explain | 16:43 |
| mgedmin | (and store a tardy flag on the absence tracking object as well, probably) | 16:43 |
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| mgedmin | I suppose it is the teacher, and not the student, who enters explanations | 16:45 |
| th1a | It would be. | 16:45 |
| th1a | Hm... | 16:45 |
| mgedmin | and is it the same teacher who accepts or rejects the explanation? | 16:45 |
| srichter | th1a: the workflow looks good, except that the workflow also can end with "Make Tardy" | 16:45 |
| mgedmin | is the acceptance done at the same time when an explanation is entered, or are those two separate steps? | 16:45 |
| srichter | (if the student never gets a valid excuse) | 16:46 |
| mgedmin | srichter, I assumed that students also must explain why they were late | 16:46 |
| th1a | mgedmin: Yes, that's what I'm thinking. | 16:46 |
| srichter | yeah, but then it still should not go through excuse to end | 16:46 |
| mgedmin | and if a student didn't show up because he felt like that, that's not a valid excuse either | 16:46 |
| mgedmin | or is it? th1a? | 16:47 |
| th1a | You still need an excuse. | 16:47 |
| mgedmin | what do you do with malicious students? | 16:47 |
| srichter | basically, if someone just takes off and never presents an excuse the workflow will always be around | 16:47 |
| srichter | mgedmin: right, that's the use case I am thinking about too | 16:47 |
| th1a | Eventually these will need to close themselves automatically. | 16:47 |
| th1a | In most schools there is a certain number of days. | 16:48 |
| th1a | And we'll also need some end of term cleanup methods that'll clean up stray workflows and the like. | 16:48 |
| th1a | mgedmin: That's a good question about who enters the excuse and who resolves it. | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | should there be a different activity in the workflow then? "close without excuse"? | 16:49 |
| mgedmin | "give up" | 16:49 |
| srichter | hehe | 16:49 |
| th1a | mgedmin: I was thinking we'd do that later. | 16:49 |
| ignas | from what i understand - at the moent reject and ecuse activities don't require any user interaction too | 16:49 |
| th1a | Might be a good thing to get some feedback on. | 16:49 |
| srichter | no, you need that now | 16:49 |
| th1a | ignas: What happens there is what we need to discuss. | 16:50 |
| srichter | you really want something that allows you to end the WF ina valid manner | 16:50 |
| srichter | without having an excuse | 16:50 |
| srichter | right, so not every activity requires manual input | 16:50 |
| th1a | This might be another case where in trying to make this workflow very simple I'm confusing the situation. | 16:51 |
| srichter | that's okay | 16:51 |
| th1a | It probably will make everyone happier if we add a "not excused" termination now. | 16:51 |
| th1a | Anyway, getting back to mgedmin's question. | 16:53 |
| th1a | Who in a school manages entering the explanation (and what codes are used to do so) will vary from school to school. | 16:53 |
| th1a | Same with deciding if it is accepted. | 16:54 |
| th1a | I guess we do need to create groups for these. | 16:54 |
| th1a | Which will generally map to the built-in groups. | 16:55 |
| th1a | Hm... | 16:55 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:55 |
| th1a | So should we make a path from reject to End? | 16:56 |
| srichter | maybe we should have a smart way of mapping WF participants to groups and users | 16:56 |
| mgedmin | perhapd not | 16:56 |
| mgedmin | if you reject one excuse, can the student submit another? | 16:57 |
| srichter | right, I think reject should not lead to an end | 16:57 |
| ignas | well it leads back to explaining | 16:57 |
| th1a | OK. From explain? | 16:57 |
| ignas | at the moment | 16:57 |
| srichter | what is the antonym for "excuse"? | 16:58 |
| ignas | reject | 16:58 |
| ignas | ? | 16:58 |
| mgedmin | actually, there can be two transitions from Reject: one back to Explain, another to End | 16:59 |
| th1a | mgedmin: That's what I was thinking. | 16:59 |
| * mgedmin suddenly feels very confused | 16:59 | |
| th1a | It is a user decision at that point. | 16:59 |
| * mgedmin quaffed a smoky green potion | 16:59 | |
| srichter | th1a: I think that is not possible | 17:00 |
| th1a | My thesaurus suggests "condemn," but that sounds a bit harsh. | 17:00 |
| srichter | an activity that links to an end cannot link back to another activity, as far as I remember | 17:00 |
| th1a | Ah. That sounds likely. | 17:00 |
| srichter | yep, just tried and it fails | 17:00 |
| mgedmin | how about this: from Explain you may go to MakeTardy (then back), or to Reject (then back), or to Excuse (then to End), or to $SomethingElse (then to End) | 17:01 |
| srichter | the reason you cannot do this is because the end transition is automatic without condition | 17:01 |
| th1a | So it would be Reject > Unexcuse > End. | 17:01 |
| th1a | We always called them "unexcused absences." | 17:01 |
| mgedmin | there's a subtle difference between "unexplained" and "unexcused" | 17:02 |
| th1a | Let me see what term is used in the High Tech High spec. | 17:02 |
| srichter | yep, that would be good | 17:02 |
| srichter | mgedmin: good point | 17:02 |
| th1a | Hm... not obvious. | 17:05 |
| th1a | I'll look it up after the meeting. | 17:05 |
| th1a | Any other questions about the workflow? | 17:06 |
| th1a | I guess the next step is to add the Application method names. | 17:06 |
| srichter | nope, not from me | 17:06 |
| mgedmin | no questions come to mind right now | 17:07 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:07 |
| th1a | I'm working on a rather long email announcing our "partner schools" in the Northern hemisphere for next year. | 17:08 |
| th1a | It ended up being a pretty straightforward decision. | 17:08 |
| th1a | We've got High Tech High in San Diego - http://hightechhigh.org | 17:08 |
| th1a | They're really the toughest. | 17:09 |
| th1a | The biggest, with probably the most data to migrate and the highest expectations. | 17:09 |
| th1a | There is the Science Leadership Academy in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - http://sla.fi.org | 17:09 |
| th1a | Sorry | 17:10 |
| th1a | http://sla.fi.edu | 17:10 |
| mgedmin | reminds me of slartibartfast for some reason | 17:10 |
| th1a | This is a new high school that is starting with just a ninth grade class. | 17:10 |
| th1a | The principal is a fellow who did a ton of stuff with open source and home-brewed PHP scripts at his former school in New York. | 17:11 |
| th1a | So he's got a lot of experience and understands what he wants and what can be done. | 17:11 |
| th1a | And then at the last minute I got a proposal from a school in Boston, | 17:12 |
| * srichter notes that the word "leadership" is his most hated US English term :-) | 17:12 | |
| th1a | The Smith Leadership Academy http://www.smithleadership.org/ | 17:12 |
| th1a | Yes. We have two "S. Leadership Academies" | 17:13 |
| th1a | Here's our contact there: | 17:13 |
| th1a | # the qualifications/background of the intended primary contact person and their relationship to the school; | 17:13 |
| th1a | Prior to changing careers, Keith Donaldson specialized in providing technical support to students, faculty and staff in educational environments. He has also served as project manager in a 24x7 data center, directed a web design team and developed a design criteria for an on-line interactive learning tool. Currently, he serves a mathematics instructor, the robotics coach and the first line of technical support at Smith Leadersh | 17:13 |
| th1a | So he should be able to make some real contributions. | 17:14 |
| th1a | Also, Smith uses PowerSchool, which is the same system that High Tech High uses. | 17:14 |
| th1a | And of course, it is close srichter and I. | 17:15 |
| th1a | Then we have one UK and one European school. | 17:15 |
| th1a | In the UK, breaking our pattern of urban public schools we've got St. Ives School in Haslemere: http://www.stiveshaslemere.com/ | 17:16 |
| srichter | yeah, the UK does not really belong to Europe ;-) | 17:16 |
| th1a | I think of it as separate. | 17:16 |
| th1a | And then Nicolas Pettiaux offered two possibilities in Belgium. One primary and one secondary. | 17:18 |
| th1a | We have to decide which one will be more useful. | 17:18 |
| th1a | The UK school is the only primary. | 17:18 |
| th1a | In the US it is two high schools and a middle (grades 6-8). | 17:18 |
| th1a | And then I need to discuss with the Shuttleworth Foundation who we're going to work with in the Southern hemisphere. | 17:19 |
| th1a | So that's the lineup. | 17:20 |
| mgedmin | we should fix bugs | 17:21 |
| th1a | And I'm basically waiting for Aiste to give me a plan regarding POV's availability for next year before submit a plan for hiring another team. | 17:21 |
| th1a | Fixing bugs is good. | 17:21 |
| th1a | Which ones? | 17:21 |
| mgedmin | all of them | 17:21 |
| Aiste | ugh | 17:22 |
| Aiste | no want give plans | 17:22 |
| Aiste | :) | 17:22 |
| Aiste | anyway, I should have one ready for you by tomorrow | 17:22 |
| th1a | Aiste: OK. Super. | 17:22 |
| th1a | srichter: Do you have some time now or are you going off to class? | 17:25 |
| srichter | I am at home, but I am in a project | 17:25 |
| srichter | do you need me online, or can we talk on the phone? | 17:25 |
| th1a | It isn't pressing. | 17:26 |
| th1a | And actually, I don't think I can talk on the phone. | 17:26 |
| th1a | I went to see Dinosaur Jr. in Cambridge last night, | 17:26 |
| th1a | which was literally the loudest rock show I've ever heard. | 17:26 |
| th1a | And I have the worst tinnitus of my life now. | 17:26 |
| Aiste | ouch, sounds painful | 17:27 |
| th1a | It was a great show though. | 17:27 |
| Aiste | good job there's irc :) | 17:27 |
| th1a | Not actually painful. | 17:27 |
| th1a | Just ringy. | 17:27 |
| srichter | ok, so what did you want to discuss? | 17:28 |
| th1a | So I thought the first step for gradebook might be to allow the teacher to assign an overall grade for the term. | 17:28 |
| th1a | In which case you'll be applying a score to the section. | 17:29 |
| th1a | An evaluation. | 17:30 |
| srichter | ok, but I think this is a bit different than the gradebook for single class activities | 17:31 |
| th1a | Anyhow, I think I need to think this through first. | 17:31 |
| srichter | ok | 17:31 |
| srichter | so let's do that | 17:31 |
| th1a | Well, the reason you have a gradebook is to create a grade for the section. | 17:32 |
| th1a | I'll work on it myself today. | 17:32 |
| th1a | Times up. | 17:32 |
| * th1a strikes the virtual gavel. | 17:32 | |
| srichter | right, but the final grade from the section is usually different from the grade calculated by the grades of activities | 17:33 |
| srichter | at Tufts these are two very different systems | 17:33 |
| th1a | Hm. | 17:33 |
| srichter | one is better guarded than a safe, the other a lot of people have access to | 17:34 |
| srichter | and you can get access easily | 17:34 |
| th1a | I think both should be equally secure. | 17:34 |
| srichter | here is a the reason | 17:34 |
| srichter | the grades of activites are there for the instructor to have a platform of evaluation | 17:35 |
| srichter | many courses have easily 5-10 instructors (including labs), so the access is wide open | 17:35 |
| srichter | but once the final grade is determined, the main instructor goes to the official university system to assign a grade | 17:36 |
| th1a | Oh. I see what you're saying. | 17:36 |
| srichter | this is the grade that will always show up on the transcripts | 17:36 |
| th1a | Well, we're kind of assuming that there is only one official system, SchoolTool. | 17:36 |
| srichter | right, but the problem domain remains | 17:37 |
| th1a | So I'm not sure what we'd do to make one part of it more or less secure than another. | 17:37 |
| srichter | my point was not so much security, but workflow | 17:37 |
| th1a | Also, we aren't really dealing with the one prof, many TA's use case. | 17:37 |
| srichter | and I think that workflow distinction holds for us as well | 17:38 |
| th1a | I don't think it does. | 17:38 |
| th1a | I'll write up a proposal. | 17:39 |
| srichter | ok | 17:39 |
| srichter | th1a: are we done? :-) | 17:43 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:43 |
| srichter | ok | 17:43 |
| th1a | That's what the "virtual gavel" signifies. | 17:43 |
| mgedmin | *thunk* | 17:46 |
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| ignas | th1a, should the time of the end of a lesson be logged as an attendance event ? | 20:42 |
| ignas | th1a, or we are only tracking presence, like Student A was present for lesson B on day 2005-12-20 | 20:43 |
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