| th1a | There aren't any SchoolTool experts sitting around twiddling their thumbs. | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| jelkner | i understand, but i would argue (and i think you'd agree) that cando success is very helpful to schooltool | 00:02 |
| jelkner | if we can't handle this, we are in trouble | 00:02 |
| jelkner | (and other things like it that come up -- /jelkner hopes there won't be many!) | 00:02 |
| th1a | jelkner: I'm sure Paul can get advice from the developers. | 00:03 |
| pcardune | I would have to agree with Tom | 00:03 |
| th1a | But in the longer term we need a real system. | 00:03 |
| th1a | I don't have any resources at my disposal to do that. | 00:03 |
| jelkner | pcardune: ok, but what if you run out of time, have a paper due the next day, and dave needs the fix so 30 teachers are not complaining to him? | 00:04 |
| th1a | I don't have any employees. I only have contractors. | 00:04 |
| jelkner | th1a: i understand about the long term need to grow the developer community | 00:04 |
| pcardune | well, if I can't do it, a schooltool person won't be able to do it either in that kind of time frame unless they know the CanDo code inside and out as I do | 00:04 |
| th1a | It isn't a philosophical difference. | 00:04 |
| jelkner | pcardune: do you think you can handle this in the time you have available, then? | 00:06 |
| pcardune | yeah | 00:06 |
| jelkner | ok, please let us know right away if you can't | 00:06 |
| jelkner | and tom, dave, and i can postpone the longer term discussion until a bit later | 00:06 |
| jelkner | th1a: is this the kind of thing i should ask mark about? | 00:08 |
| pcardune | jelkner | 00:09 |
| th1a | Regarding Mark, I would say that after April, when we will hopefully have demonstrated that a full version of SchoolTool will be running in real schools, then we should ask to have a full time programmer for handling these kinds of bug fixes. | 00:09 |
| pcardune | oops I meant jelkner, will do | 00:09 |
| th1a | I'm very reluctant to ask Mark for more and more resources at this point. | 00:10 |
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| jelkner | th1a: i'm not asking for a hand out, i want someone we can pay | 00:11 |
| flint | hi there sportsfans... | 00:11 |
| th1a | jelkner: I'm not sure why you think Mark or I has the answer to that question. | 00:11 |
| th1a | I need to find someone to write a gradebook. | 00:11 |
| th1a | I'll be writing emails to Zope 3 developers and shops. | 00:12 |
| jelkner | i'm not saying he has the solution, but we need to broaden the discussion | 00:12 |
| jelkner | this is a business issue for cannonical, i think | 00:12 |
| th1a | Well, there has never been any connection between SchoolTool and Canonical. | 00:13 |
| th1a | If you want to tell Mark what he should do with Canonical, then mazel tov. | 00:13 |
| flint | tom, the deal here is that schooltool and thus also cando are a different market from ubuntu | 00:15 |
| flint | ubuntu is for the "Hacker Boy" schooltool and by extention cando are for the EITs | 00:15 |
| flint | by EITs I mean the Educational Institutional Technologist. This is where the money is. | 00:16 |
| jelkner | th1a: i'm not trying to be presumptous | 00:16 |
| jelkner | and i'm certainly not trying to tell cannonical what to do | 00:16 |
| flint | I know that you are supported directly by Mr. Shuttleworth, and are beyond any deliberations regarding cannonical | 00:16 |
| jelkner | but they clearly want a business model for cannonical | 00:16 |
| jelkner | i believe the school market is certainly part of that | 00:16 |
| jelkner | so i'm just trying to help | 00:17 |
| th1a | I know you're not trying to cause problems :-) | 00:17 |
| jelkner | anyway, in either case, we need a solution to this problem | 00:18 |
| jelkner | my approach is to ask anyone i think might want to help us | 00:18 |
| th1a | It is just that Mark has never shown one iota of inclination towards tying SchoolTool to Canonical or vice versa. | 00:18 |
| flint | Tom, a bit off subject, I presume you are going to be at UBZ? | 00:19 |
| th1a | Yes. | 00:19 |
| dwelsh | Welsh with small wrap-up. | 00:19 |
| dwelsh | Problem #2 looks well within our power. | 00:19 |
| dwelsh | Problem #1 bears ongoing study. | 00:20 |
| dwelsh | Paul up and going on both.l | 00:20 |
| flint | I think that school tool transcends the whole ubuntu activity Tom. | 00:20 |
| dwelsh | Paul also making small change to way % competent computes. | 00:20 |
| dwelsh | Last, and maybe paul could use help with this, | 00:20 |
| dwelsh | we would like a mouse over competency number to generate of pop-up | 00:21 |
| dwelsh | of the competency description. | 00:21 |
| dwelsh | i.e. when you mouse over "001" | 00:21 |
| dwelsh | you would get popped-up | 00:21 |
| dwelsh | "Put camera securely on tripod." | 00:21 |
| dwelsh | There's probably some canned code for this somewhere. | 00:21 |
| pcardune | in otherwords how do you do mouse overs? javascript? css? html?! | 00:22 |
| th1a | I think the answer might be all of the above. | 00:22 |
| th1a | It shouldn't be hard. | 00:22 |
| pcardune | super | 00:23 |
| pcardune | I have to run to another meeting now, but I'll be working on these problems later today | 00:24 |
| th1a | One last thought from me: | 00:24 |
| th1a | It may be helpful to assimilate CanDo more completely into SchoolTool, both code and organization-wise. | 00:24 |
| th1a | I'm not sure. | 00:25 |
| th1a | But it is something we should think about. | 00:25 |
| th1a | I'm not exactly sure what I mean by that, either. | 00:25 |
| pcardune | I believe that is the plan tentatively with schooltool and cando 2006 | 00:25 |
| pcardune | with zpackages | 00:26 |
| jelkner | but in the shorter term, we need to get this support issue resolved | 00:26 |
| pcardune | im not sure there is a support issue | 00:26 |
| pcardune | or at least one that is *that* earth shattering | 00:27 |
| jelkner | pcardune: i hope you are right | 00:27 |
| th1a | I agree with pcardune. | 00:27 |
| jelkner | ok, let's hope | 00:27 |
| pcardune | so far, i have been able to get all the help i need without any problems, and so far, I have dealt with all the bugs in a timely manner | 00:27 |
| th1a | You've set your course and it would be difficult to change it at this point. | 00:27 |
| jelkner | dave is the one who will catch hell when something is seriously broken | 00:27 |
| jelkner | and then i'll catch hell from dave | 00:27 |
| jelkner | it is our job to anticipate that and to put a plan in place to minimize the chance of that happening | 00:28 |
| th1a | To find someone to take over a codebase that was written by students, grafted onto an application of questionable maturity on a not-very widely used or understood framework, would be difficult. | 00:28 |
| pcardune | well said | 00:28 |
| jelkner | yes, but we still need to do it | 00:28 |
| th1a | That's the crux of the issue. | 00:28 |
| th1a | I think it is more likely that you ride out the year with pcardune. | 00:29 |
| jelkner | but we've talked enough about this for one meeting | 00:29 |
| th1a | Quite frankly, the alternative is probably worse. | 00:29 |
| jelkner | ok, dave and i will also be talking to devIS about this | 00:30 |
| pcardune | It's going to get better with 2006... and we already told all the 2005 users to expect bugs and have patience | 00:30 |
| jelkner | so i'll keep thinking about it, day and night ;-) | 00:30 |
| pcardune | ok, goodbye all | 00:31 |
| jelkner | cya, pcardune, and good luck! | 00:32 |
| *** pcardune has left #schooltool | 00:32 | |
| jelkner | th1a: tom, here is what i'm asking... | 00:35 |
| jelkner | i understand that you have contractors, and not employees | 00:35 |
| flint | Tom, can the Programmers of Vilneas be hired to fix this login problem? | 00:35 |
| jelkner | if paul can't handle it? | 00:36 |
| jelkner | or things like this that come up? | 00:36 |
| th1a | No, because they're now doing work on a non-SchoolTool contract. | 00:36 |
| th1a | They don't only work for us. | 00:36 |
| jelkner | oh, so who is working on schooltool? | 00:36 |
| th1a | srichter is. | 00:36 |
| jelkner | ahh | 00:37 |
| flint | they are contractors. how much of their time is devoted to this other contract? | 00:37 |
| th1a | I'll get POV back in the beginning of November. | 00:37 |
| th1a | For a month. | 00:37 |
| th1a | In which time they have to write the first iteration of the attendance tracker. | 00:37 |
| flint | november is two weeks away | 00:37 |
| jelkner | i now think i know what "making cando more a part of schooltool" would mean... | 00:38 |
| flint | ...so nobody can change their passwod until Thanksgiving...:^) | 00:39 |
| jelkner | it means convincing the powers that be that cando support is as important as other parts of schooltool development | 00:39 |
| th1a | Yes. | 00:39 |
| flint | cando should be getting all security services of any kind from the schooltool code | 00:39 |
| th1a | I need to spend a little time with CanDo. | 00:41 |
| dwelsh | Jeff: let's you and me touch base over the next day or two. | 00:43 |
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| dwelsh | I'm away Wed pm and Thurs at PA Tech College, the super bowl of career tech | 00:43 |
| dwelsh | they're ALSO interested in Cando | 00:44 |
| dwelsh | but will be available via mobile | 00:44 |
| dwelsh | thanks in meantime for all help, guys. Esp. th1a | 00:44 |
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| flint | tom, can the schooltool person maintain I&A and the cando person merely be linked by username to the schooltool person? | 00:47 |
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| th1a | I&A? | 00:53 |
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| th1a | Not sure what you mean, flint. | 00:54 |
| jelkner | th1a: flint is on the phone with someone, i'm sure he'll return shortly... | 00:55 |
| flint | As i understand the problem tom, once you try to change the password, suddenly you cannot log in any more. Is that so? | 00:57 |
| th1a | You can't navigate to CanDo, as I understand it. | 00:58 |
| th1a | But the regular SchoolTool components still work. | 00:58 |
| flint | when I was involved in the cando development process, one thing that did not impress me was the hubris of the cando developers. Did they develop their own Identification and Authorization (I&A) method? | 00:59 |
| flint | The impression that I get is that in order to expand required roles they did. | 01:00 |
| th1a | There is definitely some hubris, but I don't think they wrote their own I&A. | 01:01 |
| flint | If I were to build a schooltool module that say kept track of student milk money, I would use your I&A module to validate my userbase. | 01:02 |
| th1a | I'm sure they did that. | 01:02 |
| th1a | The bug is cryptic. | 01:02 |
| th1a | And it only happens on one server. | 01:02 |
| flint | ok, so I am back to trying to figure out what is broke. | 01:02 |
| flint | so it could be zope3 install specific? | 01:02 |
| th1a | You can tweak the permissions from the web interface. | 01:03 |
| th1a | So they were looking at that. | 01:03 |
| th1a | Whether something got changed that shouldn't have. | 01:03 |
| th1a | But it isn't acting like that sort of problem, | 01:04 |
| th1a | from what I understand. | 01:04 |
| flint | yea baby that's zope... why not bring in the zope mafia from Fredrick Maryland to fix this? | 01:04 |
| jelkner | and who would pay for that? | 01:04 |
| th1a | I think the logical next step is to have pcardune discuss it with our developers. | 01:04 |
| flint | tom can you reproduce this bug? | 01:04 |
| th1a | I've been trying to get a running instance of CanDo here. | 01:05 |
| th1a | The trunk doesn't want to work. | 01:05 |
| flint | I think that having Paul talk to your folks is a fine idea. | 01:05 |
| flint | so you and I share the position of not having a working instance. | 01:05 |
| th1a | That's what we've been doing all along. | 01:05 |
| th1a | I guess I should be able to apt-get one if I can figure out what repository to use. | 01:06 |
| jelkner | flint: the only thing we were discussing was what happens when pcardune doesn't have time to fix something | 01:06 |
| jelkner | the basic issue is this: i have a problem to solve and money to pay someone to solve it. | 01:06 |
| jelkner | but there is no one to pay | 01:07 |
| jelkner | it is the old free software support issue | 01:07 |
| th1a | Did you try talking to Zope Corp? | 01:07 |
| flint | elkner tom cannot reproduce this problem. | 01:07 |
| flint | that's what I'm talking about Tim and the Zope mafia... | 01:07 |
| jelkner | if someone wanted to reproduce the problem, here is what they could do: | 01:08 |
| th1a | I haven't tried to reproduce it. | 01:08 |
| jelkner | 1. apt-get install cando | 01:08 |
| jelkner | 2. get a copy of dave's data.fs | 01:08 |
| jelkner | 3. look at the problem | 01:08 |
| th1a | jelkner: What's the URL for the cando repository? | 01:08 |
| th1a | I suppose it is somewhere on ftp.schooltool.org? | 01:08 |
| jelkner | yup | 01:08 |
| jelkner | hold on... | 01:08 |
| flint | eklner, do you have two running copies of the bug or one? | 01:09 |
| jelkner | deb ftp://ftp.schooltool.org/pub/schooltool/archives/cando breezy main | 01:09 |
| jelkner | check out the docs here: http://www.careercenter.arlington.k12.va.us/cando/setup_local.htm | 01:10 |
| jelkner | flint: only one | 01:10 |
| * jinty is also trying to reproduce the bug | 01:10 | |
| jinty | with no success and decides to go to bed instead | 01:15 |
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| flint_ | tom, could we set up a test copy of zope / schooltool / cando on a linode? | 01:21 |
| th1a | There is a demo version running somewhere. | 01:23 |
| th1a | jelkner: On which port does the .deb run? | 01:23 |
| th1a | That dwelsh set up. | 01:23 |
| flint_ | what do you mean the .deb? zope3 will set up on any port... | 01:23 |
| flint_ | oh I see where you are going... | 01:24 |
| th1a | I mean, I just apt-get-ed CanDo, which is now running on my box, but where? | 01:24 |
| th1a | I'm sure I can track it down myself. | 01:24 |
| flint_ | I gotta go to another meeting. look at the linode way out. | 01:24 |
| flint_ | bye | 01:24 |
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| th1a | OK, found it: 7280 | 01:25 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5286: | 01:30 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Make sure testbrowser is loaded. | 01:30 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5287: | 01:31 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Add missing attribute and method to interface. | 01:31 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5288: | 01:33 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Converted all datetime.datetime.now() calls to datetime.datetime.utcnow(). | 01:33 |
| jelkner | th1a: sorry, i was away, yup it's 7280 ;-) | 01:37 |
| jelkner | th1a: why does it seem that flint can never actually leave our channel here? | 01:39 |
| jelkner | he quit, but he is still listed as here | 01:39 |
| th1a | Beats me. | 01:39 |
| jelkner | last time he was listed as here for weeks | 01:39 |
| jelkner | until tvon manually logged him out | 01:39 |
| jelkner | anyway, i gotta run | 01:40 |
| th1a | bye jelkner. | 01:40 |
| jelkner | cya | 01:40 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5289: | 13:41 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Oops, not everyone has this. | 13:41 |
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| erchache | hi | 16:59 |
| erchache | where is rosetta url for spanish translation? | 16:59 |
| erchache | th1a | 17:00 |
| erchache | bskahan | 17:00 |
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| erchache | th1a: well... | 17:16 |
| erchache | im going to translate es_ES from rosetta....and after can be copied to es | 17:17 |
| erchache | because i see internet explorer uses es instead es_ES....and can be wrong | 17:17 |
| erchache | pufff....i cant enter on launchpad to translate schoolbell es_ES | 17:20 |
| erchache | are carlos here? | 17:20 |
| erchache | th1a | 17:21 |
| th1a | Yes? | 17:21 |
| erchache | i cant enter on launchpad to translate schoolbell es_ES...i send a bug...and ask for copy all es_ES translation into es | 17:23 |
| erchache | because internet explorer and common program uses es instead es_ES | 17:23 |
| erchache | i only need to translate new .po files and make a persisten daemon for schoolbell from source | 17:24 |
| erchache | do you make any documentation? | 17:24 |
| erchache | do i do that? | 17:24 |
| erchache | im at your orders.... | 17:24 |
| erchache | well....im at your orders in 30 minutes....im going to take a coffee now ;P | 17:25 |
| th1a | erchache: I'd track down and modify the Debian init script. | 18:11 |
| th1a | Do these sound like reasonable specs for SchoolTool 2006 test sites: | 18:11 |
| th1a | 1.5 ghz cpu, 512 MB RAM | 18:11 |
| th1a | I don't think you could buy a disk small enough to be a problem. | 18:12 |
| th1a | Those would be minimum numbers. | 18:13 |
| bska|mobile | th1a: that sounds about right, but we still have no idea what performance is like in a real worl production environment (eg. 25 teachers logging in concurrently at 8am) | 18:16 |
| th1a | Well, as long as they don't log in at exactly the same second, I don't see that it would be a problem, and even then, a transient one. | 18:18 |
| bska|mobile | I think those numbers sound right for what we know now | 18:19 |
| th1a | I don't want to make something overly scary. | 18:19 |
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| * bska|mobile noda | 18:21 | |
| bska|mobile | nods even | 18:21 |
| th1a | Although I suppose I should just write that the size of the server must be proportionate to the size of the school. | 18:22 |
| bska|mobile | that would be a could comment in addition to the minimum specs | 18:23 |
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| erchache | or would be cached? | 18:43 |
| erchache | im here again | 18:50 |
| erchache | th1a | 18:51 |
| th1a | Yes? | 18:51 |
| erchache | do you make any previous documentation to include on new release of schoolbell/tool? | 18:51 |
| th1a | I have not written anything that is in the tarball. I've been writing some things on the website. | 18:52 |
| erchache | all i write on website goes to svn? | 18:55 |
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| erchache | what backup system do you use? i want to install a incremental backup system | 19:35 |
| erchache | i was running with dd and kbackup for incrementals | 19:35 |
| erchache | but this is not all secure i want :-S | 19:35 |
| th1a | I'm not sure what the best system for backing up your Data.fs is. | 19:35 |
| erchache | no no...for entire site too... | 19:35 |
| bska|mobile | what's the timezone offset between london and vilnius? | 19:42 |
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| SteveA | bskahan: vilnius is 2 hrs ahead | 19:52 |
| SteveA | it is 2 hrs later here | 19:52 |
| bska|mobile | SteveA: thanks | 19:54 |
| SteveA | a fun approach to XP: http://www.netsplit.com/blog/work/canonical/parallel_peer_programming.html | 19:55 |
| th1a | SteveA: We'll have to talk at some point about how to approach the endgame of bugfixing and deployment in our contract-based system here. | 19:56 |
| th1a | That is, as schools are seriously testing and deploying SchoolTool, we'll need developers ready to respond. | 19:57 |
| th1a | Actually, it is perhaps just a matter of writing some more time-based contracts. | 19:58 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 5290: | 20:05 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Partial fix for timezone display range bugs. Remaining issue with events that start after midnight in your timezone. | 20:05 |
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| erchache | uhmmm....how i can enter into Data.fs ala phpmyadmin? | 21:20 |
| erchache | <lammerquestion> :-P | 21:20 |
| erchache | jinty | 21:20 |
| erchache | th1a | 21:20 |
| mgedmin | erchache, you can't, not easily | 21:23 |
| mgedmin | you could by writing python code | 21:23 |
| * mgedmin has disabled anonymous email registration for issues.schooltool.org -- no more issue spam! | 21:23 | |
| erchache | mgedmin: :-S | 21:25 |
| erchache | uhmmm i think my jobmate juanan need to learn python/zope....hehehe i make a advice on my TO-DO list....to learn python/zope... | 21:27 |
| erchache | a good book? | 21:27 |
| mgedmin | erchache, just what do you want to achieve? | 21:27 |
| erchache | all my friends says zope is the big shit of the world! tooo large and tedious | 21:27 |
| mgedmin | Subject: Failed issue tracker submission | 21:28 |
| mgedmin | You are not a registered user. | 21:28 |
| erchache | i want to access to Data.fs data structure and can make select statments directly | 21:28 |
| mgedmin | yes! my spam prevention works! | 21:28 |
| erchache | hehehehe good. | 21:28 |
| mgedmin | erchache, there are no SELECT statements in ZODB -- it is not a relational database | 21:28 |
| mgedmin | although Python's list comprehensions are very similar to OQL queries | 21:29 |
| erchache | annnn a binary file....ok | 21:29 |
| erchache | you must use zope like a interpreter no? | 21:29 |
| mgedmin | zope 3 comes with a 'debugzope' script | 21:29 |
| mgedmin | you run bin/debugzope | 21:29 |
| mgedmin | you get an interactive python prompt | 21:29 |
| mgedmin | wherein you can access objects from the ZODB | 21:29 |
| erchache | argghhhh im a lammer noob on these questions.....i need a superspeed course about that | 21:29 |
| mgedmin | (it sets up the path and everything) | 21:29 |
| mgedmin | perhaps it would be worthwile for schooltool to provide a similar script as well | 21:30 |
| mgedmin | erchache, it is easier to talk about concrete examples rather than vague abstractions | 21:30 |
| mgedmin | "make select statements" directly is a rather vagueish abstraction | 21:30 |
| erchache | ok ok | 21:30 |
| erchache | i dont know about are talking ;-P | 21:31 |
| mgedmin | could you give a more concrete example of what sort of queries you want to do? | 21:31 |
| erchache | my boss wants stadistics of ocupation via schoolbell | 21:31 |
| mgedmin | what is "occupation" in schoolbell context? | 21:32 |
| erchache | for example: i want to know which is number of hours of ocupation of resourcer x in this year | 21:33 |
| erchache | i want to know how many hours works this teacher a year | 21:33 |
| erchache | ans similar | 21:33 |
| mgedmin | I see | 21:33 |
| mgedmin | probably the simplest thing would be to write a schooltool plugin | 21:34 |
| mgedmin | a single python module + a single zcml file in a python package | 21:34 |
| mgedmin | defining one view | 21:35 |
| mgedmin | the zope 3 developers book could be a good start | 21:35 |
| mgedmin | it is available in bookstores, and you can download a PDF from www.zope.org | 21:35 |
| erchache | i have this... | 21:40 |
| erchache | im reading now :-P | 21:40 |
| erchache | hahahaha i can connect with everything but ms sql | 21:41 |
| erchache | jjaajajajajaja | 21:41 |
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| SteveA | binksbinksbinksbinksbinksbinksbinksbinks | 21:56 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 5291: | 22:05 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: events that start tomorrow in your timezone no longer blow out the day view calendar boundaries. | 22:05 |
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