| alga | hey, guys | 00:23 |
|---|---|---|
| alga | there's a stupid bug in the "jump to" box | 00:23 |
| alga | when you select a month, you get "teleported" to that month in the year 2004 | 00:24 |
| alga | which does not quite make sense ;-) | 00:24 |
| Voblia | at least fix it to be 2005 if you don't have much time | 00:24 |
| Voblia | yet i would prefer you making it the year selected | 00:24 |
| Voblia | so i could jump to 2006 | 00:24 |
| Voblia | and then jump to april | 00:24 |
| Voblia | which would get me into 2006-04 | 00:25 |
| Voblia | not 2004-04 | 00:25 |
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| * tvon|desk wonders when launchpad will be released | 05:55 | |
| *** tvon|desk is now known as tvon | 05:55 | |
| * tvon writes better migration docs... | 08:50 | |
| th1a | Better than whom? | 09:08 |
| tvon|x31 | than what I just commited | 09:08 |
| th1a | :-) | 09:09 |
| tvon|x31 | heh.. adding wrapper scripts as well... | 09:09 |
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| aethyr | hey tvon | 09:19 |
| tvon|x31 | hello aethyr | 09:19 |
| aethyr | I saw a post of yours saying you use clearlooks with the indubstrial color scheme | 09:19 |
| aethyr | did you do that yourself? | 09:19 |
| aethyr | or is there I place I can get that? | 09:19 |
| tvon|x31 | I did it, I can toss it online for you | 09:19 |
| tvon|x31 | one sec... | 09:19 |
| aethyr | awesome :) I was just thinking how I'd like clearlooks with an indubstrial color scheme, and google dug that up | 09:19 |
| tvon|x31 | heh, nice | 09:20 |
| tvon|x31 | I often port that colorscheme to engines I like | 09:20 |
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| tvon|x31 | http://people.etria.com/~tvon/ClearlooksIndubstrial.tar.bz2 | 09:21 |
| tvon|x31 | though... its a loose copy... it doenst have the same "tabbed areas lighter than background" effect that indubstrial has | 09:21 |
| aethyr | cool, I'll check it out, thanks again :) | 09:24 |
| tvon|x31 | no problem | 09:24 |
| aethyr | I like it better than clearlooks | 09:26 |
| aethyr | not sure how I like it compared to indubstrial yet | 09:26 |
| aethyr | I'll keep it on for a day or two | 09:26 |
| aethyr | thanks :) | 09:26 |
| tvon|x31 | heh, no problem :) | 09:27 |
| tvon|x31 | bedtime | 10:13 |
| * tvon|x31 hits the sack | 10:13 | |
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| * mgedmin fixing ftests | 15:57 | |
| mgedmin | progress: instead of one ftest failure, now I have two... | 15:57 |
| mgedmin | down to one | 16:15 |
| mgedmin | hey, the jump to portlet is still buggy | 16:47 |
| mgedmin | I jump to july, I appear in 2004 | 16:47 |
| th1a | Yay! More snow. | 17:01 |
| * mgedmin fumes | 17:01 | |
| mgedmin | someone lost the unit tests for getJumpToYears/getJumpToMonths | 17:02 |
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| bskahan | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4304375.stm | 17:28 |
| th1a | http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002244.html | 17:29 |
| th1a | So do we do a handheld client or create a customized web view? | 17:30 |
| bskahan | handheld view, I would hope ;) | 17:32 |
| th1a | Once we're really off the ground we should be able to get grants from people other than Mark for that kind of work. | 17:34 |
| th1a | Bill Gates was praising High Tech High in his big talk to the governors about high school reform. | 17:55 |
| th1a | I'm meeting with HTH in a couple weeks when I'm in San Diego for ETech. | 17:55 |
| th1a | It would be sweet to be in one of BillG's favorite schools. | 17:56 |
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| th1a|shoveling | I guess with SB 1.0 we should start posting tarballs on zope.org. | 18:12 |
| bskahan | probably just the SB package though? | 18:17 |
| bskahan | to the Z3 add-ons section | 18:17 |
| th1a|shoveling | Yeah. | 18:24 |
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| bskahan | i wish "Could not adapt" was more informative | 19:46 |
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| alga | th1a|shoveling: are you there? | 20:32 |
| *** th1a|shoveling is now known as th1a | 20:33 | |
| th1a | Done shoveling. | 20:33 |
| th1a | What's up? | 20:33 |
| alga | we're thinkig about resource booking | 20:35 |
| th1a | Yes? | 20:35 |
| alga | it is a particular case of a more general thing: events with multiple participations | 20:35 |
| alga | like a meeting with a list of people attending it and a list of resources used | 20:36 |
| alga | do you thing we will ever need that? | 20:36 |
| th1a | One would imagine so. | 20:37 |
| th1a | Yes. | 20:38 |
| bskahan | to move into the sheduling aspects of 'meetings' rather than 'events' | 20:38 |
| th1a | Hula is totally meeting oriented. | 20:38 |
| * mgedmin notes that when you get into this more general case, questions about access control become hard to answer | 20:42 | |
| alga | When people are involved, we also need invitations and acceptances | 20:43 |
| alga | so, we might do the cheap thing -- approximately what we had in 0.9 | 20:43 |
| alga | or try to start a more general architecture for those future use cases | 20:44 |
| alga | but that would take a lot longer, we would have to renegotiate the proposal or something | 20:44 |
| th1a | I think we should architect for those use cases, even if we don't implement them in the short term. | 20:45 |
| th1a | So yeah, perhaps we should modify the proposal. | 20:45 |
| alga | basically, the main question is who can edit events that involve several people | 20:45 |
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| th1a | By default, the person who created the event. | 20:46 |
| alga | but then he/she could intrude into other people's calendars | 20:46 |
| th1a | If I call a meeting with 10 participants, I'm still in charge of the meeting. | 20:46 |
| th1a | So they need to be able to decline, etc. | 20:47 |
| th1a | Which, quite frankly I don't want to implement in the foreseeable future. | 20:47 |
| alga | cool | 20:48 |
| alga | *sigh* I feel relieved | 20:48 |
| th1a | We could assume that people will still be, you know, talking to each other. | 20:48 |
| alga | right | 20:48 |
| alga | do we want to allow booking several resources at once? | 20:48 |
| alga | Ignas suggested an interesting thought -- adding resources to already created events | 20:49 |
| th1a | We do want to allow booking several resources. | 20:50 |
| th1a | e.g., I need the cart of laptops and the projector. | 20:50 |
| th1a | In SchoolTool, the event will often be a timetable event. | 20:51 |
| th1a | That may drive you insane. | 20:51 |
| alga | right | 20:51 |
| th1a | Or we may just have to make those instances calendar events. | 20:51 |
| alga | OK | 20:52 |
| alga | next question: | 20:52 |
| alga | in 0.9 we can't modify booking events | 20:52 |
| alga | create, delete. that's it | 20:52 |
| alga | do we want to let people modify booking events in 0.9 | 20:53 |
| alga | do we want to let people modify booking events in sb 1.1? | 20:53 |
| alga | then, who should be able to modify, if there are a person and several resources involved? | 20:53 |
| th1a | In a sense we won't have booking events in 1.1, right, we'll just have events with attached resources. | 20:53 |
| * mgedmin notes that in sb 0.9 you can modify booking events, but they magically become regular nonbooking events if you touch them | 20:54 | |
| alga | mgedmin: which is essentially not being able to modify | 20:54 |
| alga | user: "If I modify booking events they break!" | 20:54 |
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| alga | we: don't do that then | 20:54 |
| alga | so, you like the idea of being able to attach resources? | 20:55 |
| th1a | Let's see... I haven't spent much time with the new permissions system yet--but I will! But anyway, let me know if this makes no sense. | 20:55 |
| th1a | As reasonable defaults. | 20:56 |
| alga | then that event should magically appear on the resources' calendar? | 20:56 |
| th1a | Yes. | 20:56 |
| th1a | So you'd need permission to add events to the resource's calendar. | 20:56 |
| alga | what about modification then? | 20:57 |
| alga | straightforwardly, you also need permissions to modify calendars on all resources you included | 20:57 |
| alga | but will that be the case? | 20:57 |
| th1a | I would imagine. | 20:57 |
| th1a | Unless all this security stuff is just to get in the way. | 20:57 |
| th1a | On implication is that you should have "add" permission to the calendars of all the people you invite. | 20:58 |
| alga | right | 20:59 |
| th1a | I think there is a difference in the "meetings between peers" and "meetings called by your boss" use cases. | 21:00 |
| th1a | Meetings between peers are more complicated for us. | 21:00 |
| th1a | They don't really work without invites, etc. | 21:01 |
| th1a | Meetings called by the boss can be forced through the permissions framework though, I think. | 21:01 |
| th1a | Luckily, many schools are strictly hierarchical and teachers don't call meeting with each other ;-) | 21:02 |
| alga | but right now we're only thinking about resources, yes? :) | 21:03 |
| mgedmin | suddenly the phrase "human resources" springs into mind... | 21:03 |
| th1a | I'm drifting a bit. | 21:03 |
| alga | so were we | 21:04 |
| alga | the domain is hard | 21:04 |
| alga | I want to narrow it down as much as possible | 21:04 |
| * mgedmin discards ~400 spams from the checkins mailman queue | 21:04 | |
| th1a | Right. | 21:04 |
| alga | ok, imagine I created an event and booked a resource | 21:04 |
| alga | for which you are a "manager" | 21:04 |
| alga | can you cancel that booking? edit the event? | 21:05 |
| alga | delete the event? | 21:05 |
| th1a | We can't completely prevent people from fucking each other over. | 21:05 |
| alga | right | 21:06 |
| th1a | I'd say that, as a general rule, the managers of the things involved in the meeting have control over the thing's participation in the meeting. | 21:06 |
| th1a | Hm... | 21:07 |
| alga | but right now, do we want to be restrictive or permissive? | 21:07 |
| th1a | On the other hand, it is simpler to keep the control in the hands of the meeting manager. | 21:07 |
| th1a | Isn't it? | 21:07 |
| alga | I think so | 21:07 |
| Voblia | i just thought - if people are resources -- we could issue a warning when your meeting colides with someones callendar (in the same manner as with conflicting classrooms) | 21:08 |
| th1a | Voblia: That would be desirable. | 21:08 |
| th1a | OK, so in shaping the use cases, remember 1) we're assuming that people creating meetings have some authority over the people and things they're inviting to the meeting, and thus should have add permissions to their calendars. | 21:09 |
| th1a | 2) We're assuming that if someone wants a person or resource removed from the meeting, they can contact that person outside the system. | 21:10 |
| th1a | Contact the manager of the event. | 21:10 |
| alga | ok | 21:10 |
| th1a | I think that will give us a basic implementation that can be expanded later. | 21:10 |
| alga | right | 21:11 |
| alga | what about conflicts then? | 21:11 |
| th1a | It is also a feature that would be attractive for outside developers. | 21:11 |
| alga | in ST 0.8 only managers could book with a conflict, and teachers could not | 21:11 |
| th1a | It would be good if potential conflicts were noted before the event was booked. | 21:12 |
| th1a | But again, assuming that the people booking the events have authority over the members, we should probably allow conflicts to go through. | 21:13 |
| alga | OTOH, are conficts that bad? | 21:14 |
| Voblia | when attaching a resource to an event - you sghuold clearly see resources that are busy on the "event time" | 21:14 |
| alga | if a user is used to overlaid calendars, they happen all the time | 21:14 |
| th1a | If my personal calendar has "Get a haircut" and my boss wants to book "Tom's annual review," he shouldn't be blocked. | 21:14 |
| Voblia | th1a, yet having you in a separate box, with a link to your calendar (or even ... gasp ... title and time of the conflicting event) | 21:15 |
| Voblia | woudl be nice | 21:15 |
| th1a | Certainly. | 21:15 |
| * Voblia wants to have a separate attaching resources/persons to event dialog (so the event add/edit dialog would not get any more cluttered) | 21:17 | |
| th1a | Voblia +1 | 21:17 |
| alga | yes | 21:17 |
| alga | a list of resources | 21:17 |
| th1a | We should keep in mind that school administrators will make the decision about adopting SchoolTool or not, so aiming features at them is always a good idea. | 21:18 |
| Voblia | and maybe persons ? | 21:18 |
| alga | for which you have and add permission | 21:18 |
| alga | and overlapping events for those, for which you have view | 21:18 |
| th1a | Right. | 21:18 |
| th1a | This is making sense, I think. I'm excited. | 21:20 |
| th1a | One thing to also keep in mind is that when teachers book resources for their classes, they probably won't explicitly add the students as attendees. | 21:22 |
| th1a | The kids will be showing up to class anyhow, and they don't care that there will be a projector there. | 21:22 |
| th1a | But if, for example, the class was moved to another room, perhaps then the group could added as attending so the new location would show up on their calendar. | 21:23 |
| Voblia | well if kids know of the class - they have an event don't they ? | 21:25 |
| Voblia | who owns the event ? | 21:25 |
| Voblia | ouch - timetable event i guess ? | 21:25 |
| th1a | The class would normally be a timetable event. | 21:25 |
| * Voblia is not very familiar with schooltool | 21:25 | |
| th1a | Few are. | 21:25 |
| tvon | heh | 21:25 |
| Voblia | <lol>making timetable event a resource that is free/available on the time it is happening and book it with the projector and classroom ;)</lol> | 21:27 |
| alga | !? | 21:27 |
| th1a | You know, here's something that may save our sanity and make the timetable event code way simpler. | 21:28 |
| th1a | Can we assume that after the first week of school or whatever, a student really isn't going to be looking at his timetable calendar? | 21:28 |
| th1a | And everything like a changed calendar due to an assembly or something should just be represented as regular events, since they'll just be looking at their regular calendars anyhow? | 21:29 |
| alga | I think it is going to be overlaid on his main calendar most of the time | 21:30 |
| th1a | Keep the timetable view completely static. | 21:30 |
| th1a | Well, think about how we'll represent homework assignments then, for example. | 21:31 |
| th1a | We'll either need to add them to the timetable calendar or as calendar events. | 21:31 |
| th1a | If we assume the student is always overlaying the timetable calendar, then a homework assignment should show up in that view. | 21:31 |
| th1a | e.g. 9:00 English -- Essay due. | 21:32 |
| alga | what about the proposal? | 21:32 |
| alga | do we have to edit it and send to you in its entirety? | 21:33 |
| th1a | Which one? ;-) Sorry I'm wandering afield. | 21:33 |
| th1a | I would say you should send me a revised proposal for the contract you're finishing and a new one. | 21:33 |
| alga | I think we have reached and idea of the functionality we want | 21:33 |
| th1a | Yes. | 21:33 |
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| alga | a new one? | 21:34 |
| alga | what's going in there? | 21:34 |
| th1a | Oh, you're just thinking of revising the current one. That's simpler. | 21:36 |
| th1a | Just do that. | 21:36 |
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| vincy | hi | 21:52 |
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| th1a | http://schooltool.edweblogs.org | 23:00 |
| th1a | Now I just have to figure out what's running on this thing. | 23:02 |
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| th1a | Does SchoolBell 1.0 prefer Python 2.4? | 23:15 |
| bskahan | I don't think so | 23:23 |
| th1a | Nor do I. | 23:24 |
| th1a | This thing is running Red Hat. Agh. | 23:25 |
| bskahan | 7.3? | 23:28 |
| th1a | Ah, jeez. It's "Sun Cobalt Linux." | 23:28 |
| th1a | Who knows what the fuck that is. | 23:28 |
| bskahan | the little blue cube | 23:29 |
| th1a | Actually it is a little blue rack. | 23:29 |
| bskahan | oh yeah, forgot they made those | 23:29 |
| th1a | Who knows what version of whatever I need. | 23:29 |
| bskahan | too bad about cobalt | 23:29 |
| th1a | There's a little picture on the web page. | 23:29 |
| th1a | I need a subversion client. | 23:30 |
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| th1a | ls | 23:41 |
| th1a | oops | 23:42 |
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