| d2m | mgedmin: nice you added planetzope to your planet list-- thanks for that, i hope it is usefull to you (the website is at http://planetzope.org -- the link i gave you before was the rss-feed :) | 00:36 |
|---|---|---|
| mgedmin | ah, I wondered why it was so elegantly simple | 00:57 |
| mgedmin | http://www.manageability.org/blog/stuff/soap-is-dead | 01:03 |
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| tvon|x31 | go REST | 01:24 |
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| mgedmin | unit tests for my javascript: http://mg.b4net.lt/planets/mg/test.html | 03:35 |
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| Workblia | anyone alive ? | 20:44 |
| bskahan | Workblia: sure | 20:59 |
| Workblia | what would be the easiest way to launch a non Zope3 version ./schoolbell-server.py one ? | 21:00 |
| Workblia | i want to lookup some f-nality .... | 21:01 |
| bskahan | using 0.9? | 21:01 |
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| bskahan | 0.9 run ./schoolbell-server.py, there's no way to run a full z3 instance | 21:03 |
| bskahan | svn always runs z3, but you can hide it with the z3schoolbell.py script | 21:03 |
| Workblia | ?? | 21:08 |
| Workblia | sorry me is zleepy so it kind of hurts when i try thinking ;) | 21:10 |
| Workblia | would it be difficult to give me a zombie version ? ;) | 21:10 |
| bskahan | what release are you using? | 21:11 |
| Workblia | svn | 21:12 |
| Workblia | i want to look up the f-nality of one form | 21:13 |
| Workblia | before commiting and going home | 21:13 |
| bskahan | from svn it will always use z3 | 21:21 |
| bskahan | make, then ./z3schoolbell.py will hide zope3 | 21:21 |
| Workblia | i see | 21:30 |
| bskahan | Workblia: got it to work? | 21:33 |
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| Workblia | yup | 21:50 |
| Workblia | but what's the password ? ;) | 21:50 |
| bskahan | hrm | 21:51 |
| bskahan | good question | 21:51 |
| bskahan | gandalf:123 | 21:52 |
| bskahan | or something like that | 21:52 |
| Workblia | nope | 21:53 |
| Workblia | manager is not working too | 21:53 |
| bskahan | have to log into manage with gandalf, iirc | 21:54 |
| Workblia | btw how to forward remote "localhost:4005" to my localhost:4005 ? | 21:54 |
| bskahan | ip | 21:54 |
| Workblia | fridge | 21:54 |
| bskahan | ? | 21:55 |
| Workblia | ssh fridge -L4005:????:4005 | 21:55 |
| bskahan | wouldn't fridge:4005 work then? | 21:55 |
| bskahan | localhost just pulls up 127.0.0.1 fridge pulls up whatever you put in /etc/hosts | 21:56 |
| Workblia | channel 2: open failed: connect failed: Connection refused | 21:56 |
| Workblia | ssh fridge -L4005:fridge:4005 | 21:56 |
| bskahan | ssh fridge -p 4005 to specify a port on ssh | 21:58 |
| Workblia | not that ... | 22:03 |
| Workblia | something weird ... | 22:03 |
| bskahan | don't think I understand the question | 22:06 |
| Workblia | bah | 22:07 |
| Workblia | me lame ;) | 22:07 |
| Workblia | thank you for help ;) | 22:10 |
| Workblia | i forgot that some servers can use more than one port when communicating | 22:10 |
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| rsta | hello | 22:20 |
| Workblia | hi | 22:21 |
| rsta | i'm interested in learning about the relationship objects in SchoolBell - has anyone here been involved with that part of the code? | 22:22 |
| Workblia | nope | 22:27 |
| bskahan | rsta: what are you trying to do? | 22:27 |
| Workblia | can't help you in any way | 22:27 |
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| bskahan | bringing up the dc.* conversation again | 23:03 |
| th1a | Yes? | 23:04 |
| bskahan | the more I think about dc.creator, the more I think it will be useful in schooltool | 23:04 |
| bskahan | dc.creator and dc.modified reffering to the record of /person/joe | 23:05 |
| th1a | Referring to the record. | 23:05 |
| th1a | I think I see what you're saying. | 23:05 |
| bskahan | for tracking who modified what, when | 23:05 |
| th1a | Right. | 23:05 |
| bskahan | I was initially in the DC is only for documents camp | 23:06 |
| bskahan | but /persons/joe really is a document | 23:06 |
| bskahan | (moreso in schooltool) | 23:06 |
| bskahan | its a piece of a "student record" | 23:06 |
| bskahan | at least | 23:06 |
| th1a | But whether or not you use Zope3's DC machinery is perhaps irrelevant. | 23:06 |
| th1a | If it is an easy way to do it, fine, | 23:06 |
| bskahan | true | 23:06 |
| th1a | if it is harder it doesn't actually gain you much, if anything. | 23:07 |
| bskahan | I'm not sure its easier/harder | 23:07 |
| th1a | It is probably a toss up. | 23:07 |
| bskahan | as much as existing/not existing | 23:07 |
| bskahan | yeah | 23:07 |
| th1a | The main thing, I guess, is not introducing anything that is logically inconsistent. | 23:07 |
| bskahan | yeah | 23:08 |
| th1a | The tricky place is where you're getting close to content objects. | 23:08 |
| * tvon is of the "anything can be content" camp | 23:09 | |
| th1a | Just to make sure that there isn't confusion between the dc:creator of the paper and the dc:creator of the assessment of the paper. | 23:09 |
| bskahan | the assesment would have its own dc.* wouldn't it? | 23:10 |
| th1a | Right, but it might confuse the user if the UI is unclear. | 23:10 |
| th1a | It just requires some caution. | 23:10 |
| * bskahan nods | 23:10 | |
| th1a | You might have cases (and this isn't something we'd be working on directly anyhow) where one person is creating a file object to upload someone else's work. | 23:11 |
| th1a | Actually, I guess that's the very reason Zope3 explicitly has the Dublin Core stuff, isn't it. | 23:12 |
| bskahan | one of those places DC sucks a bit | 23:12 |
| * bskahan nods | 23:12 | |
| th1a | So you can explicitly say that the creator of this document isn't the person who uploaded it. | 23:12 |
| bskahan | creator, publisher, and contributors | 23:13 |
| th1a | So now that I've successfully circled around to the starting point. | 23:13 |
| bskahan | the DC stuff is useful | 23:13 |
| bskahan | we just have to make sure its used logically, and consistent across schooltool apps | 23:13 |
| bskahan | plone doesn't do a spectacular job with using DC | 23:14 |
| tvon | yeah | 23:14 |
| bskahan | because everything gets "creator" assigned to the user uploading | 23:14 |
| bskahan | we can improve on that | 23:14 |
| th1a | Perhaps we shouldn't use the DC machinery if we don't intend the user to be able to explicitly se it. | 23:14 |
| th1a | set it. | 23:14 |
| th1a | Or we should allow the user to change it. | 23:15 |
| bskahan | I think a use policy would be good, and could make the DC hidden from the user | 23:15 |
| th1a | If the secretary is entering data created by someone else... | 23:15 |
| bskahan | then the secretary is the dc.publisher posiibly | 23:16 |
| th1a | See, this isn't making things easier. | 23:16 |
| bskahan | if they assign an author, that person becomes the dc.creator | 23:16 |
| bskahan | frustrating, most of the DC data is useful | 23:17 |
| bskahan | you'd want to know, nearly all the dc info about most objects on the site | 23:18 |
| * bskahan is reading through zope.app.dublincore to figure out why his annotations are broken | 23:19 | |
| th1a | Is there a practical application you're confronting now? | 23:20 |
| bskahan | no, just reading dc source | 23:20 |
| bskahan | related to something else | 23:20 |
| th1a | Well, we don't have to make a final decision until we move onto working on SchoolTool proper. | 23:21 |
| bskahan | yeah | 23:21 |
| bskahan | just occurred to me | 23:21 |
| bskahan | figured I'd throw it out there | 23:21 |
| th1a | It's related to how we're going to handle event logging. | 23:22 |
| th1a | Have you looked at http://www.siderean.com/delicious/facetious.jsp | 23:25 |
| bskahan | yeah | 23:26 |
| bskahan | I want a del.icio.us backend for epiphany bookmarks | 23:27 |
| th1a | I need to have a clearer explanation of how SchoolTool facets relate to faceted browsing like this. | 23:27 |
| tvon | "no locally stored bookmarks"... would be nifty | 23:27 |
| bskahan | you could browse groups like that | 23:31 |
| bskahan | via relationships, not facets | 23:31 |
| bskahan | eg., jonnie -> 9th grade & bio1, in bio1 -> jonnie, susie, bill, bill -> algebra2 with steve who's in 10th grade and in the chorus group with susie from bio1 | 23:33 |
| bskahan | eventually I see how you could do something similar with facets, but I'm not sure there's much there now | 23:35 |
| th1a | Right. | 23:35 |
| bskahan | it would come into some of the higher level school oriented features | 23:35 |
| rsta | bskahan: i'm interested in developing a relationship object system for other forms of content | 23:36 |
| th1a | Such as? | 23:36 |
| rsta | categorized content | 23:36 |
| bskahan | honor roll | 23:36 |
| th1a | Sorry... | 23:37 |
| th1a | rsta: what kind of content? | 23:37 |
| rsta | well starting with blog type content | 23:37 |
| th1a | And tracking relationships between posts, like trackbacks? | 23:38 |
| bskahan | the concept of "honor roll, fall 2005" could be implemented as a group, but it could also be done as facets on the students who are in it (really it would be both because if facetedrelationshipevents) | 23:38 |
| bskahan | rsta: have you looked at the schoolbell.relationship package | 23:39 |
| bskahan | you may be able to use it directly | 23:40 |
| th1a | bskahan: Using facets just to indicate membership? Are those facets without attributes, essentially? This is where I get confused about facets, still. | 23:40 |
| th1a | Are there facets at all in the Z3 SchoolBell yet? | 23:40 |
| bskahan | don't believe so | 23:40 |
| bskahan | I'm not sure there will be | 23:41 |
| th1a | We haven't actually figured out how they relate to annotations, right? They're pretty similar, right? | 23:41 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 23:41 |
| bskahan | they're more complex than annotation | 23:41 |
| bskahan | s | 23:41 |
| bskahan | I'm guessing POV is waying the benefit they give over facets | 23:41 |
| th1a | We may need an explanation from SteveA. | 23:41 |
| rsta | bskahan: that's what i'm hoping - haven't looked at the package yet though | 23:42 |
| rsta | is SchoolTool/SchoolBell all in Zope3 yet? | 23:42 |
| bskahan | rsta: progress(tm) | 23:42 |
| bskahan | yes | 23:42 |
| rsta | ? | 23:43 |
| tvon | SchoolBell is all z3 in SVN | 23:43 |
| bskahan | you can add a schoobell application to a Z3 instance | 23:43 |
| tvon | schooltool z3 work has not begun yet | 23:43 |
| bskahan | not all the features from schoolbell 0.9 are working with zope3 | 23:43 |
| bskahan | but they're getting there | 23:43 |
| bskahan | rsta: have we spoken about a Z3 weblog in the past? | 23:44 |
| bskahan | I've talked to someone about it | 23:44 |
| rsta | bskahan: probably not... but some of the SchoolBell features are very similar to what i've been working on | 23:45 |
| bskahan | might poke around #zope3-dev during the week, I know 1 or 2 people who want to work on a Z3 weblog system | 23:45 |
| bskahan | th1a: about the honor roll | 23:46 |
| th1a | yes? | 23:47 |
| bskahan | you could have add a facet to the student that indicates when they were on the honor roll, rather than having to search through group memberships | 23:47 |
| bskahan | the easiest way to create that facet (in schooltool) would be to do it as a side effect of the relationship event | 23:48 |
| bskahan | I beilieve teacher is the only thing that works that way currently | 23:49 |
| th1a | That seems overly belt and suspenders. | 23:50 |
| th1a | To the point of being confusing. | 23:50 |
| rsta | what is a facet? | 23:50 |
| bskahan | rsta: a way to add additional information to an object in schooltool | 23:51 |
| th1a | You can define facets as chunks of metadata and add them to objects. | 23:51 |
| th1a | But as you can probably tell from the discussion, their use is somewhat mysterious. | 23:51 |
| bskahan | similar to annotations in zope3, but I think the big difference is that annotations are intended for metadata and facets where intended as an extension method | 23:51 |
| th1a | Yeah, the extension method is what is hard to understand. | 23:52 |
| bskahan | I could be wrong about the intent, but that's my interpretation | 23:52 |
| rsta | what about using a relationship and a different type of object? | 23:52 |
| th1a | bskahan: No, I think you're right. | 23:52 |
| bskahan | th1a: dynamic facets wouldn't be an appropriate use of annotations, for example | 23:53 |
| bskahan | rsta: you could do it that way, but I think using the infomation wouldn't be as simple | 23:54 |
| bskahan | and its wouldn't take advantage of the many-to-many feature of relationships | 23:54 |
| th1a | rsta: It isn't clear to me what you can do with the original SchoolTool facets that you couldn't do with annotations and relationships. | 23:55 |
| bskahan | demographics | 23:55 |
| tvon | I thought facets were going out the window in favor of annotations? | 23:55 |
| rsta | th1a: not sure what exactly an annotation is in this context, but i think i agree | 23:56 |
| bskahan | tvon: I think so, but now that I thought about it, how do we add back demographics? | 23:56 |
| tvon | annotations :) | 23:56 |
| bskahan | (I can think of a few ways, none of them involve annotations ;)) | 23:56 |
| tvon | an object holding the appropriate information (PersonDemographics() or something) | 23:57 |
| tvon | slapped into an annotation | 23:57 |
| bskahan | 'slapped' is where that strikes me | 23:57 |
| tvon | my z3-foo isn't up to par yet though, so I'm not sure | 23:58 |
| tvon | slapped, placed, whatever :) | 23:58 |
| rsta | can any SchoolBell modules be used outside of Z3? | 23:58 |
| bskahan | I think it gets back to the adapter-oriented foo from the z3 tutorial | 23:58 |
| bskahan | rsta: ical parser probably | 23:58 |
| bskahan | most other things probably at least require z3 libs installed, but could be used outside z3 otherwise | 23:59 |
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