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| * bskahan concludes gvimdiff is more useful than svn merge | 05:14 | |
| tvon | th1a: ayt? | 07:55 |
|---|---|---|
| tvon | When is the event that you want to demo the Atom Notes in? | 07:55 |
| th1a | Mid-March. | 09:44 |
| bskahan | hey tom | 09:45 |
| th1a | Yes? | 09:45 |
| bskahan | just sent you a planet.schooltool tarball | 09:45 |
| th1a | I see. | 09:45 |
| * th1a just woke up after being stricken with some kind of bug this evening. | 09:46 | |
| bskahan | ugh | 09:47 |
| * bskahan is heading to bed shortly | 09:47 | |
| th1a | I just got a headache and _really_tired_. Nothing too horrible. | 09:47 |
| bskahan | over now? | 09:47 |
| bskahan | I always assume short illnesses are some form of food poisoning ;) | 09:48 |
| th1a | Uh... apparently. Now I have to try to go back to sleep. | 09:48 |
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| jinty | mgedmin: ayt? | 18:56 |
| mgedmin | y | 18:56 |
| jinty | about depending on zope. | 18:57 |
| jinty | Ive been in contact with the zope3 maintainer | 18:57 |
| jinty | who is graciously going to split up the zope package into pieces | 18:58 |
| jinty | the interfaces are already a separate package, | 18:58 |
| jinty | but what other pieces of zope will/are we going to need | 18:58 |
| mgedmin | the tarball of zope x3 3.0.0 release contains a lot of separate pieces inside | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | with explicit dependency descriptions in zpkg config files | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | but those bits might be much too granular for debian packages | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | anyway | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | re: your question: that is not finalized yet | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | probably all of zope 3 | 19:00 |
| jinty | ah | 19:00 |
| jinty | ZEO? | 19:00 |
| mgedmin | no | 19:00 |
| mgedmin | we will not depend on things like buddyfolder or z3checkins that are currently bundled with zope 3 | 19:01 |
| jinty | ok, rephrase, what pieces can he definately leave out? | 19:01 |
| mgedmin | ah | 19:01 |
| mgedmin | do we need to answer this now? | 19:01 |
| mgedmin | the zope 3 transition is not yet finished | 19:02 |
| mgedmin | we can't tell exactly which bits of zope 3 we will find useful and which bits we will leave | 19:02 |
| jinty | ok. | 19:02 |
| mgedmin | as a rule of thumb, I think it is safe to say that we will not depend on things that are add-ons to zope 3 | 19:02 |
| mgedmin | (e.g. zwiki) | 19:03 |
| mgedmin | we will support zwiki (tom wanted a demo of that), but schooltool will not break if zwiki is not present on the system | 19:03 |
| mgedmin | things that are not parts of zope 3 core (although it is hard to define what the core is) | 19:03 |
| jinty | Ok, so basically we depend on "core zope" if there is such a thing. | 19:04 |
| mgedmin | yes | 19:04 |
| mgedmin | to clear up any misunderstandings, we will depend on things that are within zope.app | 19:04 |
| jinty | and add ons like zwiki/ZEO/z3checkins/buddyfolder can be left out | 19:04 |
| mgedmin | (there is a clear sepearation in zope: things outside zope.app are reusable without the rest of zope and must not depend on things within zope.app) | 19:04 |
| jinty | ok, That sounds good. Do you mind if I send a log of this conversation to the zope maintainer? | 19:05 |
| mgedmin | no problem | 19:09 |
| mgedmin | have you seen http://source.schooltool.org/irclogs yet? | 19:09 |
| jinty | no - but then I am always a little slow:) | 19:10 |
| jinty | Ah! - very nice! | 19:11 |
| * mgedmin is very proud | 19:11 | |
| jinty | Solves a big problem of mine that I cannot be online a lot. Thanks! | 19:12 |
| jinty | How fast does it refresh? | 19:12 |
| mgedmin | every 5 minutes | 19:13 |
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| mgedmin | if you strip the .html you should get a plain-text log file that is updated constantly | 19:13 |
| th1a | mgedmin: Did you announce that to the list? | 19:14 |
| jinty | somple and very usefull - cool | 19:14 |
| * th1a is updating the link on the SchoolTool website. | 19:15 | |
| jinty | s/so/si/ | 19:18 |
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| SteveA | th1a: look at the "generations" stuff in zope3 for upgrading zodb schemas and code | 21:37 |
| th1a | Where? | 21:38 |
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| th1a | http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/DatabaseGenerations | 21:42 |
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| mgedmin | th1a, I didn't | 21:45 |
| mgedmin | good idea | 21:45 |
| mgedmin | btw I mentioned z3 generations (with a link) during yesterday's meeting | 21:45 |
| th1a | We'll be using them post SB 1.0, I assume. | 21:46 |
| th1a | Is this in Zope 3 yet? | 21:46 |
| mgedmin | yes | 21:47 |
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| mgedmin | it might be best to officially declare that SB 1.0 is generation 1 in the database | 21:47 |
| th1a | Right. | 21:47 |
| mgedmin | after that, we will increment the generation number for each schooltool/bell release and add migration scripts to the code | 21:47 |
| mgedmin | s/scripts/utilities/ | 21:47 |
| th1a | The question is, what's the most expedient hack to provide minimal upgrades from 0.8 to 0.9? | 21:48 |
| mgedmin | schooltool or schoolbell? | 21:48 |
| mgedmin | doesn't matter | 21:48 |
| mgedmin | a few judiciously placed class attributes and __setattr__ methods | 21:49 |
| mgedmin | plus some code in Server.ensureAppExists (if I remember the class and method name correctly) | 21:49 |
| th1a | Is it still fairly easy if SchoolBell 0.9 comes from the trunk? | 21:49 |
| mgedmin | I'm not sure | 21:50 |
| mgedmin | it might be harder | 21:50 |
| th1a | Sooner or later we're going to have to switch to the more Z3 oriented code, which I imagine is a rougher transition. | 21:50 |
| mgedmin | I'm not following you | 21:51 |
| mgedmin | are you saying that SB 1.0 should support upgrades from 0.8 and 0.9? | 21:51 |
| th1a | Minimally. | 21:51 |
| mgedmin | I don't understand what "minimally" means in this context | 21:52 |
| th1a | Move your persons, groups, resources and their calendars. | 21:52 |
| th1a | It doesn't seem like anyone is seriously using SchoolBell in production. Except maybe you guys. | 21:53 |
| mgedmin | ok, if we don't care about absences, event log utilities, relationships, timetables, etc, etc | 21:53 |
| mgedmin | then it is not so difficul | 21:53 |
| mgedmin | then it is not so difficult | 21:53 |
| th1a | Right. | 21:53 |
| mgedmin | and the easiest way is to write a conversion script in ensureAppExists | 21:53 |
| mgedmin | that would recreate new objects with data extracted from old objects | 21:53 |
| mgedmin | rather than trying to add missing attributes etc. in old objects | 21:54 |
| mgedmin | it would be safer | 21:54 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 21:54 |
| mgedmin | note that when we first write such a conversion function | 21:54 |
| mgedmin | we should stick in a new attribute with explicitly stating the database version | 21:55 |
| th1a | Yes. | 21:55 |
| mgedmin | so that in future releases do not need to guess whether the data format is from 0.8 or 0.9 | 21:55 |
| mgedmin | zope 3 generations is one way to do that | 21:55 |
| mgedmin | rather, it is a standartized zope 3 framework to do that | 21:56 |
| mgedmin | so that zope 3 apps do not need to reimplement the common bits of this framework (storing versions somewhere, calling appropriate functions for data conversion) | 21:57 |
| mgedmin | if SB 0.9 comes from the trunk, we /could/ start using generations | 21:57 |
| mgedmin | however that might delay the release | 21:57 |
| th1a | The current plan is to use the trunk, iirc. | 21:58 |
| * mgedmin is thinking about unknown risks because he has never actually used z3 generations, only read about them | 21:58 | |
| th1a | I'd rather have this delay 0.9 than 1.0. | 22:00 |
| mgedmin | I see your point | 22:00 |
| th1a | Plus it gets increasingly more likely that people will start using SchoolBell. | 22:01 |
| mgedmin | should SB 1.0 support partial migration for 0.9 (just peoples, groups, resources and calendars) | 22:02 |
| mgedmin | or should it support full db migration? | 22:02 |
| mgedmin | the difference is mostly in implementation, I think | 22:02 |
| th1a | I say partial is enough. | 22:03 |
| th1a | Unless it wouldn't take much additional time to do full. | 22:03 |
| mgedmin | ok | 22:04 |
| mgedmin | let me see if I understand the current sb 0.9 plan right: | 22:04 |
| mgedmin | - merge sb 0.9 changes to trunk | 22:04 |
| mgedmin | - add partial migration from 0.8 | 22:04 |
| mgedmin | - release sb 0.9 | 22:04 |
| th1a | I should post that to the list to make sure Jinty's on the same page. | 22:05 |
| mgedmin | this poses some questions | 22:05 |
| mgedmin | schoolbell 0.8 and schooltool 0.8 were almost the same thing (different wording and logo, that's it) | 22:05 |
| mgedmin | schoolbell 0.9 hides a lot of schooltool functionality | 22:06 |
| mgedmin | I do not thing merges to schooltool trunk that remove schooltool functionality are ok | 22:06 |
| mgedmin | we will have solved that problem (sharing of code + adequate separation of user interfaces) in sb 1.0 | 22:07 |
| th1a | Well, we can also wait until Etria makes basic updates the SchoolTool UI before we upload SB 0.9 and ST 0.9 to Debian. | 22:07 |
| mgedmin | that implies two branches in the repository | 22:08 |
| mgedmin | one for schooltool (trunk), one for schoolbell | 22:08 |
| mgedmin | or maybe not | 22:08 |
| mgedmin | perhaps it would be sufficient to have a different set of page templates | 22:08 |
| mgedmin | if we could share all the view code, things would be simpler | 22:08 |
| mgedmin | jinty yesterday wanted to separate python files from page templates for packaging reasons | 22:09 |
| th1a | That's what we've had in mind. | 22:09 |
| mgedmin | if we did that, then we could accomodate both schooltool and schoolbell with different uis in the same subversion branch (i.e. trunk) | 22:09 |
| mgedmin | however there are some differences in python files (e.g. renaming the 'root' group to 'everyone') | 22:10 |
| mgedmin | the change of plans for schoolbell 0.9 makes us solve some problems earlier than we anticipated | 22:11 |
| mgedmin | and probably in a different and temporary way from the final solutions | 22:12 |
| mgedmin | because the final solution will take some time to implement | 22:12 |
| th1a | You mean using the trunk? | 22:12 |
| mgedmin | yes | 22:12 |
| th1a | (as the change of plan)? | 22:12 |
| mgedmin | yes | 22:12 |
| mgedmin | the original plan was "branch schooltool into schoolbell-ui, make some changes, release for christmas" | 22:12 |
| th1a | Right. | 22:13 |
| mgedmin | new plan is "merge into trunk, solve the problem of accomodating the now schooltool and schoolbell UIs, add backwards db compatibility code, release" | 22:13 |
| th1a | There are lots of Debian packaging side effects that I didn't take into account in the original plan. | 22:13 |
| mgedmin | neither did I | 22:14 |
| th1a | I don't think this is causing any time to be wasted. | 22:14 |
| mgedmin | probably not | 22:14 |
| th1a | Just dealing with a few things now instead of later. | 22:14 |
| mgedmin | unless later we will want to deal with those things in a slightly different way ;) | 22:15 |
| th1a | Not between 0.9 and 1.0 | 22:15 |
| mgedmin | my vision for schoolbell 1.0 and schooltool 1.0 is this | 22:16 |
| mgedmin | we have two top-level packages instead of one: schooltool and schoolbell | 22:16 |
| mgedmin | schoolbell contains everything that is needed for schoolbell 1.0 (calendars, persons, resources, etc.) | 22:17 |
| mgedmin | schooltool contains everything that is needed for schooltool 1.0 except for those bits that are already present in schoolbell | 22:17 |
| mgedmin | modules within the schooltool package may (and will) depend on modules within the schoolbell package, but not the other way around | 22:17 |
| th1a | Ah. | 22:18 |
| th1a | Hm. Hadn't thought of it that way. | 22:18 |
| mgedmin | so schooltool will contain absences, timetables, etc. | 22:18 |
| mgedmin | we will use zcml for defining views | 22:20 |
| mgedmin | so we will be able to say that schooltool and schoolbell use the same view class for, say, a person's info page, but with different page templates | 22:21 |
| th1a | Hm. Remember that SchoolTool will eventually be doing much, much more than SchoolBell. | 22:22 |
| mgedmin | yes | 22:22 |
| mgedmin | eventually schoolbell will be the #1 calendaring solution for zope3 apps | 22:23 |
| mgedmin | and schooltool will be a big zope 3 app that uses schoolbell for its calendaring needs | 22:23 |
| mgedmin | I still need to think about the difference between "schoolbell as an application" and "schoolbell as a collection of libraries for calendaring" | 22:24 |
| bskahan | after merging back to trunk can we use Zope layers to seperate out the UIs? | 22:24 |
| mgedmin | ideally the first (app) should be just a small addition to the second (libs) | 22:24 |
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| bskahan | that was the impression I ot from steve | 22:24 |
| mgedmin | perhaps just a single file + a python script that can be run from the command line to start up the server | 22:25 |
| mgedmin | s/just a single file/just a single zcml file/ | 22:25 |
| mgedmin | bskahan, trunk does not use zope 3 views yet | 22:25 |
| mgedmin | so you cannot use zope 3 layers right now | 22:25 |
| * bskahan nods | 22:26 | |
| mgedmin | you will be able to do that before we release sb 1.0 | 22:26 |
| * mgedmin should really commit the currently smallish 'schoolbell' package that he extracted from schooltool during the ubuntu conference | 22:26 | |
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